INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

C-SPAN’S “NEWSMAKERS”

Guest: Representative Carolyn Kilpatrick (MI-D)

Reporters: Jesse Holland, Associated Press, and Mike Soraghan, The Hill

Moderator: C-SPAN

TAPE DATE: Thursday, June 26, 2008

AIR DATE/TIME: SUNDAY, June 29, 2008 at 10 a.m. and 6 p.m. ET

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STEVE SCULLY, POLITICAL EDITOR, C-SPAN: Joining us on C-SPAN's Newsmakers for this Sunday, Representative Carolyn Kilpatrick, Democrat, of Michigan and the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus.

And here with the questioning, Jesse Holland, Congressional Correspondent for the Associated Press, and Mike Soraghan, Senior Staff Writer for The Hill newspaper.

Congresswoman, let me ask you about last Thursday's decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Does that decision end the debate for now or could the next Congress take up the D.C. gun ban?

CAROLYN KILPATRICK (D-MI), 13TH DISTRICT, CHAIR, CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS: Well, the Supreme Court of the United States, the Supreme Court is the law of the land. It will rest. It will state what it is. It ruled the ban unconstitutional.

And at the same time, the Congress can take up anything and put a referendum out into the country.

So there are other options. I do believe, unfortunately, that it's unconstitutional, as ruled by the Supreme Court today, but that, yes, I think you'll hear more about it.

Any referendum can go out to Americans, after passed by the Congress and put on ballots, and a certain two-thirds, I think it is, has to adopt it.

So it's not over totally. The people of Washington, D.C. voted themselves, 700,000 of them, some portion of those, to ban handguns in the District of Columbia.

I support that. And now the Supreme Court has overruled the will of the people.

SCULLY: Did Thursday's decision surprise you?

KILPATRICK: Well, you know, not really, because I think the court, over its decisions from the last eight years, have really made a lot of decisions, including voter intimidation and voter ID that is against the will of the people.

So though we were hoping for a better decision, we were not surprised.

SCULLY: Jesse Holland.

JESSE HOLLAND, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Are you advocating a constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court decision?

KILPATRICK: Not at this time. We just got the decision last Thursday, just three short days ago. So we haven't at all looked at that. We won't as a caucus.

We think, again, it ought to be the will of the people of the District of Columbia and I think we'll hear more from them.

HOLLAND: Turning from that court decision, the Congressional Black Caucus met with Democratic nominee Barack Obama.

In the past, there's been some policy differences between Senator Obama and the rest of the caucus.

Were these differences ironed out in this meeting and is everyone in the caucus on board behind Senator Obama now?

KILPATRICK: You know, Senator Obama, we're very proud of him, is a member of the Congressional Black Caucus and has been ever since he's been in this Congress.

As chairperson of the caucus, we're honored to have him. Their Senate schedule is a bit different from ours. Every Wednesday at noon we meet and a different member takes care of the luncheon for the rest of the members.

We turn out 35-40 members per meeting. And I want your listeners and viewers to know, we're a Congressional Black Caucus, 43 members from 21 states. We represent over 40 million Americans.

Eighteen of our members represent less than 50 percent African-American. Five of our members represent less than 15 percent. And the most any of us represent are 60 percent African-Americans.

So we represent all of Americans, Asian, Latino, European, Native American, and the like.

So having said that about the Senator, where we disagree on anything, and that's whether you're a Democrat or Republican or within the Congressional Black Caucus, we always sit down and talk about it.

But our meeting last Thursday, and I believe it was a great meeting, as do most of the members, I know there's been a lot of leaks about it and I'm sure you'll ask me about it, it was a good meeting.

We must win in November and that is the focus of Senator Obama and the rest of this country.

Health care, housing, gasoline, jobs, environment, seniors, I mean, we've got a list of things that we must build America back around, so the children can have some access and opportunities.

So the meeting was a good one and we had 40 members there who were participating.

MIKE SORAGHAN, SENIOR STAFF WRITER, THE HILL: Congresswoman Kilpatrick, what will be – in terms of whether it was discussed in that meeting or in other CBC meetings, what do you expect the role of CBC to be in the Obama campaign?

KILPATRICK: Excellent, excellent. Each of us represents over 650,000 Americans.

Our role will be to help to turn them out and to elect a Democratic president in November. That's our number one goal.

Now, how do we do that? We work with the structure that the Senator has put together. He has thousands of volunteers across this country. And then for him to come across the country and us to be with him sometimes and not, turning out, educating, volunteering our time so that we can get to the issues of health care and housing and jobs and what he'll do about those things.

And then there's the gas prices and food prices and all of that. So our job is to be his partner, as we are now, and to turn out our vote for him, that we might have a Democratic president in November.

SORAGHAN: He's also looking for a vice presidential nominee.

KILPATRICK: Yes, yes.

SORAGHAN: And we hear that there were some names thrown out by the Congressional Black Caucus.

KILPATRICK: Yes.

SORAGHAN: Including Sam Nunn and John Edwards.

KILPATRICK: Well, I was the one in that meeting. I was honored to be asked by former Attorney General Eric Holder, as well as Caroline Kennedy, to join them and last week had an interview with them.

It was a great interview, lasted nearly an hour, and we talked about a myriad of things. They asked me who I'd like to see and I said Al Gore is my number one guy. I like him.

They asked us about several people they may have been considering. They also asked me who I thought was good from the House. They were asking for the House or Senate.

I know the House better. I put out Jack Murtha. I think Jack Murtha would be a good candidate for vice president.

I haven't asked him that, nor have I asked Vice President Gore, but those I think would be good.

Then they went on to ask about several people on the list that they had, those two that you mentioned, including John Edwards, as well as Sam Nunn, as well as our former colleague, the governor of Ohio was also mentioned, Ted Strickland.

So it was a good meeting. We talked more about America, what we'd like to see, what kind of the things that caucus had talked about.

My Georgia representatives, one of them in particular, offered up Sam Nunn. I was glad that they mentioned him to me.

So they're looking and I want the Senator to take due diligence time. Never in the history of our country has the nominee ever been announced before a week or so or at convention, and that's the last week in August.

So I think he has to take his time. We want to win. He wants to win. The American people want to win.

So he needs to take time to find someone who he can work with and get things done, as well.

SCULLY: Every poll, though, in the last two weeks, Washington Post, ABC News, Gallup Poll, indicating that the Senator still has a gender issue problem in light of the primary with Senator Clinton.

Does he need to pick a woman vice president to close that gap?

KILPATRICK: He'll have to make that decision. I don't absolutely think he has to. The women vote will have to work out and come out and be a part of him. We met with Senator Clinton just yesterday here in the Capitol and she's going to be working with us to help to turn out her 18 million voters.

Yes, it's said that the Senator may have a women's problem. I think many women have already come over to him and we think more, because it's not about women. It's about the issues and what you think for women as relates to education and health care and housing.

Women are providers. So it's jobs. It's the same issues. Yes, we have to work with women and we offered ourselves as members of the Congressional Black Caucus to work with him, not just the women vote, but for America's vote, in all ethnicities, as well as in the gender.

HOLLAND: Bob Johnson, the former owner of BET, sent the CBC a letter encouraging the CBC to get behind Senator Clinton.

KILPATRICK: He did not.

HOLLAND: He did not?

KILPATRICK: He sent – he sent – excuse me. That's OK. I'm glad you asked that, as well.

He sent our whip, Jim Clyburn, a letter asking if Jim would ask the CBC. He did not send it to me or the CBC in general.

And I think Congressman Clyburn's response to him was, "You should go to the Congressional Black Caucus and ask that," which he still has not done and I think it's waned itself by now.

HOLLAND: But would you support Senator Clinton as a vice presidential nominee?

KILPATRICK: I support whoever Senator Obama supports, and that's been the position of our caucus now. Our caucus is coming together.

As you know, some of our caucus was with Senator Obama, some were with Senator Clinton.

I personally was uncommitted because I was working on getting our Michigan delegation seated, and I'm happy to say that we will be seated and we'll have a full vote, as well, as we move to convention.

But I think it's to let the process work, give Senator Obama that right that he has, and that we will be behind him 110 percent.

SORAGHAN: As I understand it, shortly after that letter came out, one of the members of the caucus, in a caucus meeting, Representative Jesse Jackson, Jr., made it very clear that there would not be any such endorsement and that it was not a good idea to send such a letter.

Did you think it was not a good idea to send a ...

KILPATRICK: I chaired that meeting and what he said was – and he did not say what you just said. What he said was the campaign, and I've spoken to Senator Obama, would like for us to let the process work.

He did not say not to accept Senator Clinton nor was he that specific about any vice presidential candidate.

We were asked, through Congressman Jesse Jackson, as well as conversations that he called and asked me, if we would not take a position and let the Senator do his due diligence, and we yielded to that.

We also believe that's the right way to go.

SCULLY: Like you said earlier, Senator Obama seemed to be having, in the polls, problems with getting the female vote out after the primary with Senator Clinton.

What exactly can the CBC do? Because black female voters are important. What exactly can the CBC do to change those people's minds from Senator Clinton to Senator Obama?

KILPATRICK: Well, first of all, they're going to come from Senator Clinton and she's out doing that as we speak. Senator Clinton wants her 18 million voters to now vote for Senator Barack, and she's the best transfer of that power from those supporters of hers.

Secondly, as congressmen and women, it's our responsibility, who want to win, to look at those polls, of course, but to go out into total America and work across ethnic, gender, geographic and political lines to turn out the votes and talk about the issues of jobs and health care and housing and things that affect the average American family.

We're going to do that. We believe that we can mobilize a good percentage of our 40 million, and that's for members who live in those districts.

But then you might know that other people from across the country who are not represented by a CBC member also call on us. So we're everywhere and working with our coalition organizations.

We're going to turn that vote out for him.

HOLLAND: One of the recent controversies in the election came with Senator Obama. Two black Muslim women were asked to move from behind him at a podium and the Obama campaign has apologized since then.

KILPATRICK: And he has called the two women individually.

HOLLAND: Did he...

KILPATRICK: Yes, sir.

HOLLAND: Did you see him do that?

KILPATRICK: Absolutely not. He's a Senator. Why would I have to do that? But the man that...

HOLLAND: And I've heard this was brought up at the CBC meeting.

KILPATRICK: It was brought up. And that's Detroit. The Senator was in Detroit for the first time during this campaign season. I was in the arena.

And as a candidate for over 30 years, our volunteers might do anything, but may not get right up to the top.

It was wrong. It was ill treatment. Michigan has the largest population of Muslim Americans outside of the Middle East, eight million Muslim Americans across America, of all ethnic persuasions, black, white brown, red.

And in that instance, in Coble Hall – excuse me – Joe Louis Arena that night, it was a volunteer who said that on two separate occasions.

But as you see now, the Senator has put pictures out. He's been with the Muslim community. He is a Christian, first of all.

But certainly he wants to accept and does work with all ethnicities and all racial divides.

SCULLY: Mike Soraghan.

SORAGHAN: If I may. Coming out of this meeting or coming into this meeting, as I understand it, there was a great deal of tension within the caucus. Many members had supported Senator Clinton and many members, obviously, supported Senator Obama.

Are some of the members who had supported Senator Clinton worried about facing primaries because they supported Senator Clinton?

KILPATRICK: You know, not to speak of. We haven't had that. I myself have a primary, but mine's totally different.

A lot of the primaries have come and gone. They start in January and now we're into June, soon to be July.

So some of them have come and gone.

I don't think that now and, again, with politics and the body politic, in general, the American people have their right to believe and do what they do.

It's our job as leaders to help them along, to understand what public policy is as it relates to laws and legislation that govern their lives.

So to answer that specifically, I don't think so, but I'm hearing from a couple of my New York colleagues, Congressman Jose Serrano, for example, and, in New York, the entire New York delegation supported Hillary Clinton for president. If it were Michigan, I'd do the same thing, my Senator.

So some of them, whose primary is not until September, have said that they now have opposition because of having supported her. But, again, we think Senator Clinton will work with that and help in those instances.

SCULLY: Let me ask you about your own primary later this summer.

Do you worry that your son's situation will in any way impact your own re-nomination?

KILPATRICK: Absolutely, my son's situation has impacted my race.

My son has been a great mayor, former Democratic leader of the state house, a young attorney, he's done great for Detroit.

I've been in politics for 30 years. He's been there for eight, at the most, in the house and senate, state house and now being mayor.

I've done polling and, yes, it has impacted. I am ahead and we're going out.

What the polling has showed is that America wants the bums out. It's because they are hurting in their own homes with their own families and gas and jobs and health care and all the things I mentioned.

They want some (INAUDIBLE). So my election is August 5. I will win that election. I am going after every vote. I'm not taking it for granted.

I'm running on my record. Half a billion dollars is what I've brought into my district in southeastern Michigan since I've been here in Congress and appropriations for education and housing and health care, those kinds of things, for my universities, for my cities.

All of my 11-mayor cities support me. So I have a difficult race, but it's OK. It's part of the American process and I accept that.

SCULLY: But as you know, the Detroit Free Press, which endorsed your son when he first ran in 2001, now calling him to resign. He hasn't resigned.

Do you think voters will take it out on you?

KILPATRICK: There probably will be some. But I don't advocate that he resign. I advocate that he have his day in court. We believe that he'll get through that.

Whether he runs in '09, when his election is up, then people should take that out at that time. It's unfortunate, but I understand it. I mean, I can't speak to that. I have had some fallout about it, but I do believe that I'll win and I'm going to work for that.

HOLLAND: When Democrats took over Congress, several members of the CBC became powerful chairs in Congress. But the rule so far in Congress is that chairs are term limited.

Will the CBC ask for Speaker Pelosi to end term limits so these members can keep their chairs?

KILPATRICK: I have not taken a position on that and your question – thank you very much. Six years are the term that members get.

Well, they're just in their first two years. So they've got to at least finish these out and then four more.

We don't know what's going to happen at that time, but we have many CBC members rising to positions of leadership. We also have 16 subcommittee chairs at the moment, on everything from housing to environment to training, you name it.

So we've got a little time to think about that. I tend to want the process to go. I've been here 12 years now and the highest – and our colleague from Michigan is Chairman Dingell. Second is Chairman Conyers.

Chairman Dingell has 50 years. Chairman Conyers has 46. So I don't know. I tend to want the process to stay as it is, but we'll see. We have four more years after this term.

SORAGHAN: As Jesse noted, the CBC has certainly gained in clout with the Democratic takeover of Congress.

What has been the legislative impact of the CBC and its newfound power?

KILPATRICK: Very good. We've done some major things. And Charlie Rangel, Congressman from New York, who chairs the powerful Ways and Means Committee, has been able to get energy legislation, has been able to do a lot of things in that committee with, his full committee and subcommittee chairs. Unemployment compensation which just came out, you name it.

Bennie Thompson, who chairs the Homeland Security Committee, has been able to put more money on the borders to help with immigration policies.

I live in the northern border with Canada. I've already complained since I've been here that we don't spend enough dollars there to protect the citizens, to usher people in.

We've been living with decades – I mentioned about the Arab population in our part of the world. The three of us, three members from Michigan, we represent those Arabs.

For decades, they have been our partners. Our children have gone to school with them.

Chairman Thompson has been able to secure the border, on the one hand, and, also, work with ICE, which is Immigration and Customs Enforcement, to make sure that it's a seamless kind of issue.

They say that there are 12 million illegal immigrants in America. We want them to be legal or to return, and Chairman Thompson has been right in the middle of that.

Chairman Conyers in Judiciary, also from Michigan, has been able to do a great, great bill and just yesterday – excuse me – on last Wednesday, we had a very stunning defeat out of the Judiciary Committee of a gaming bill which would have taken the – in Michigan, it's regulated, gaming, across the state, regulated by the state.

It was going to bring it in the federal arena and legislation that would have taken from Native American tribes here in Michigan and across the country revenues from their gaming and giving it to two distinct tribes. We beat that back and Chairman Conyers, along with other kind of Judiciary. So it's made a great impact.

And in our caucuses and talking to the 233 Democrats, we meet regularly every week, each of them have a role to play, as do others, as the issues come forward.

HOLLAND: Immigration is one of those flashpoint issues that you see come up during election seasons.

What can be done to stem illegal immigration in America given the political climate right now or is this an issue that will have to wait until after the election?

KILPATRICK: I think we're going to be dealing with it for a long time. We certainly started – I served on Homeland Security Appropriations Subcommittee with Chairman David Pryor from North Carolina and had the opportunity to visit both the Arizona border with Mexico, as well as the California, and it's a problem.

Again, northern border, as well, but they don't pay as much attention to that because there's more thousands coming across.

I think it's something that we'll have to deal with for a long time. Unfortunately, we could not and tried to get a comprehensive immigration bill out that would do a lot of things.

But we were able to pass a comprehensive with several things in it, so we’ve done one or two things that still need work on.

SORAGHAN: Congresswoman, if I could return again to the clout of the CBC.

Ralph Nader, this week, in an interview, I think, with the Rocky Mountain News, accused Senator Obama of trying to talk white and, by that, he meant that Senator Obama was not talking about a lot of urban poverty issues, not talking about predatory loans and asbestos.

With the first ever black major party presidential nominee, the clout that the CBC enjoys, why is there not more national discussion on these poverty and urban issues?

KILPATRICK: Everywhere he goes; he talks about housing, the housing foreclosure crisis, the American dream that people are losing. I think that cuts across racial divide.

Everywhere he goes, he talks about a good education, quality education for all of America's children. I'm a strong proponent of education. I think the more you have, the more options you have, and I've raised my family and constituents to believe that and do it.

He's talked about health care and housing and jobs. So those cut across issues.

He is going to be the president. I am going to believe that and I see that as people come out. I believe Senator Barack Obama will be our next president of the United States.

He's talked about the issues. You hear the sound bytes or the 15 or 10 seconds. And I wake up every day at 5:30, 6:00, get my little hour and a half in, so I know. So I heard that this morning with Mr. Nader and I think I heard the Senator say he's a good man, he's done some good things, raised some good issues, but he wants some attention for his campaign.

And I believe that's exactly what it is. Senator Obama is talking about those issues. He will be talking more about them. And as we, as members of Congress, on the Democratic ticket, go out to talk about and mobilize Americans, we will continue to talk about them, as well.

SCULLY: How will you pay for some of these programs? If the Democrats have the House and the Senate, which they have now, and the White House, could the American people expect a tax increase next year?

KILPATRICK: Absolutely not. There may be some kind of tax increase, but just let me talk on that. We have been...

SCULLY: What kind of tax increase?

KILPATRICK: Middle income is what Senator Obama is talking about. Right now, the wealthiest one percent...

SCULLY: Middle income tax increase?

KILPATRICK: No, no, no. Tax cuts for the middle income people, so they reinvest in their children's education, help out with their parents, those kinds – I haven't seen the plan succinctly, but he's been talking about it and we've got some general data on it.

I can't tell you what he's going to do. I can tell you what the American people want and what we want to see, as members of the House of Representatives on the Democratic side, we want to see a fairer tax distribution and who has to pay taxes and who does not.

The wealthiest Americans pay less taxes than middle income Americans right now. That has to be fixed. The tax cuts that John McCain wants to make permanent cost over $10 million a year. That has to be eliminated.

I've got a couple of good, very wealthy friends and they all tell me, "Congresswoman, we don't have to have the tax cut. We'd rather see it in housing and health care and education."

I think...

SCULLY: So where do you draw the line between middle and upper income?

KILPATRICK: Well, $1 million a year is what's used as that barometer now. That's who gets the largest tax cuts.

My constituents average $50,000 to $60,000 a year. So that's a big chunk in there. We hope – and the middle class has shrunk in this country, and I know you know that, just in terms of – in Michigan, for example, with the big three taking a hit, the auto industry will never be what it once was. But it had good paying jobs. Still has a few, but just not the numbers.

Many of those people who were making $80,000, $90,000 because of overtime, some are unemployed, and they're professional people, in many instances. They're not just the blue collar workers.

So because the incomes have certainly dropped back in many households and causing all kind of problems with marriages and families and children and schools and you name it, I think, first of all, we've got to put America back to work.

Take jobs, health care jobs, those are the up and coming jobs and training people for those. We need the education institutions.

So we've got a lot of work to do.

HOLLAND: As an African-American politician, what do you see as the importance of Barack Obama getting the Democratic nomination and becoming the nominee for president for your party?

KILPATRICK: You know, I smile, when you say that, on the inside, as well as out. I'm 63 yesterday, 63 years old, and all of my life, I've always believed and taught my children that you can be and do anything with excellence and education and believing in the higher power that will help you get there.

Seeing Senator Barack Obama receive and get the nomination was a life fulfilling something for me. That was a first step. It never had been done before. And he's a person of color who will probably go all the way and I support that totally.

For young people, and I strong proponent of young people, young people, right now, 18 to 36, but also young people six and 10, I have six grandchildren, two sets of twins, 12 and 10, and a new princess who is about five months old.

I'm happy that not only Senator Barack Obama, but Senator Clinton, she could be president of the United States one day. Senator Clinton has laid that framework.

My 10-year-olds, they could be president of the United States. And I think young people across this country know that one day, given the opportunity, the education, the love, the discipline, that they, too, could be president of the United States.

HOLLAND: Did Senator Clinton's inability to get that nomination hurt female politicians in any way?

KILPATRICK: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And, see, I think what Senator Clinton shows – and we all knew that. I love her, I've known her for a long time. She's brilliant. She's smart. She's tenacious. She knows how to work across the lines in terms of Republican and Democrat. And she can build and think.

I think she did nothing but help us. I'm most proud of Senator Clinton.

SORAGHAN: Congresswoman, we talked about the agenda of the CBC. How do you see that agenda changing if you do have a Democratic president, who would, obviously, be Barack Obama?

KILPATRICK: You know, the issues remain the same. We'll have a long time to rebuild America. We still have to fix education in this country, public education, where 95 percent of America's children still go, public education.

I feel, if I were superintendent, I could fix that. I go to China, they spend 70 percent of their budget on education. India, upwards of 60 percent. We spend two percent of our federal budget on education and then rely on the states to do the rest.

My state and others don't have the revenue. Technology, everyone should have it. I think we have to change how we fund education and I think it ought to be more of a federal responsibility.

That will always be an issue with us.

Health care, we've got to get a new health care system. We're the last industrialized country in the world who doesn't have it. Both candidates, both Hillary Clinton, as well as Senator Barack Obama, have discussed it.

I believe we'll see that. That will be helpful. So we'll stay there.

Jobs. You talk about jobs, and we were rewarding, under this administration, jobs who move their companies offshore to another country, their headquarters. They got tax breaks.

We want to bring those jobs back.

As I mentioned, the auto industry will never be what it once was. To be able to compete and to grow and to learn, we have to fix that.

So jobs and the economy, investing in education and housing. You work all your life for a house and now, through predatory lending and other kinds, you've lost your home. The children are unstable.

There's no reason for that. So the bank's got to get money and President Bush and this administration still want to support the banks. We want to support the people who lost those homes, refinance the system, down payment assistance.

There are a myriad of bills that we just passed out of the House and sent to the Senate and we hope that they'll act on them soon.

SCULLY: Early in the primary season, as you know, Michelle Obama said for the first time in her adult life, she was proud of her country.

Was she wrong in saying that about her husband and what her husband's candidacy meant?

KILPATRICK: I would never say that she was wrong. Michelle Obama is a brilliant, very, very talented, Harvard educated lawyer, highly regarded.

Senator Obama loves her and they have a wonderful family.

We work with and we'll work with both she and her family to make sure that she's secure. We can't second guess what she said.

I think it was out of context. She loves her country. I've seen her say it a number of times. And I'm looking forward to working with her as we move forward.

SCULLY: And, finally, your son, does he intend to seek public office again?

KILPATRICK: I have no way of knowing. His first priority now is to his judicial, his legal problems. It will be going to court in September. We'll be finding out what happens with that. And he'll have to make that decision.

My son is 37 years old. He was 30 when he won mayor. So he's learned a lot. He was, as I mentioned, Democratic leader of the Michigan state house.

So though people think we go home and talk every night, we don't. Most parents don't even have that relationship.

My kid's 30. He's got a family, he pays taxes, he's got boys. So my son will determine. He's a great leader, very intelligent man, and I'm sure he has a promising career ahead of him, whatever he decides to do.

SCULLY: Congresswoman Kilpatrick, thanks very much for joining us on Newsmakers.

KILPATRICK: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Appreciate you all. Thank you.

(break)

SCULLY: We continue the discussion with Jesse Holland of the Associated Press and Mike Soraghan of The Hill newspaper.

Jesse Holland, what did you learn?

HOLLAND: We've been getting details about Senator Obama's meeting with the Congressional Black Caucus. They've been slowly leaking out of that meeting.

And so we've learned a little bit more about what happened with Senator Obama at the Congressional Black Caucus, at that meeting, and, also, she shed a little bit more light about what happened in Michigan when Senator Obama's staff moved two black Muslim women out of a shot that he would have been in.

It doesn't seem to have negatively impacted Senator Obama too much so far, but we'll know more as we go down the road. And we see that it's an issue of concern for some members of the Congressional Black Caucus.

SCULLY: Mile Soraghan, it also seems that part of the debate next year is going to be on the programs that a potential Obama administration would want to implement and how you pay for that.

And the question is how do you define middle class.

SORAGHAN: Right. And she there said that $1 million seems to be the cutoff point and saying that she sees absolutely – I think she said "absolutely not."

SCULLY: And yet Senator Obama has said maybe closer to $200,000.

SORAGHAN: That's true. But she seems to think it sets in around $1 million and basically sort of setting that as a guideline, I think, as to where the tax cuts have gone for the past eight years.

So I think that the idea of describing who is rich and who is middle class is one of the trickiest questions whenever – once you get past the willingness to raise taxes or not.

SCULLY: We did not ask about the Michigan delegation, although she indicated that they will have a full vote.

Can you explain what's going to happen when the delegation meets in Denver this August?

HOLLAND: Well, as your viewers know, Michigan moved its primary up earlier than what the Democratic National Committee wanted, and there has been a huge debate going on inside the Democratic Party of whether those delegates should be counted.

As far as we know right now, those delegates will be seated and, according to her, will get a full vote at the Denver convention.

Now, I don't know if I've heard that officially announced.

SORAGHAN: I think that's a decision of the Democratic National Committee or at least the committee that met and handled it.

And in Florida, I believe, they just gave everybody a half a vote. But because Obama was not on the ballot in Michigan, they rearranged some things, I think using exit polls, to assign some additional voters, I think, the Clinton campaign, at the time, while it was still functioning, argued that that was arbitrary and there wasn't any official things to base it on.

So that's – but in the end, it will be unanimous for Obama.

HOLLAND: At this point, it almost doesn't matter, since there's only one candidate and there's no question about who the Democratic nominee is going to be at this point, since Senator Clinton has already ceded the race to Senator Obama.

So at this point, it almost doesn't matter whether the delegates are seated. Of course, to them, it matters a lot. But the end result will be the same whether they're there or not.

SCULLY: Mike Soraghan, last week, Chris Cannon of Utah, Republican, the third incumbent to lose in a primary this season, and Representative Kilpatrick indicated that she's facing her own primary challenge in August.

SORAGHAN: She indicated that the situation with her son, who I think faces eight counts, as a matter of this affair, and some (INAUDIBLE) about some e-mails surfacing, is going to cause her some problems.

Voters – the city council in Detroit is looking to – is discussing removing Mayor Kilpatrick, but there's no chance to do that at the ballot box and the concern, I guess, is that they'll instead remove Congresswoman Kilpatrick, his mother.

SCULLY: And did it surprise you that she said that may happen, that some may take out their frustration with her son on her?

SORAGHAN: I think she's being pretty candid. I think that – but there's also some sentiment that voters, particularly women voters, voters who are mothers, will say, "Hey, she's just defending her son. It's not her. It's a natural reaction to defend your son and I'm not going to vote."

It could backfire, in the minds of some consultants I've talked to.

HOLLAND: And it's been a tough year in primaries for a lot of people. Even a member of the CBC, Al Wynn, lost a primary in his own state and now has been replaced in Congress by another Democrat.

So with primaries, you never know. It's been tough on a lot of people this year.

SORAGHAN: Primaries, when you're talking about the CBC that is where members get replaced, if they don't retire. Most of these members are from solidly Democratic districts and the only way for voters who have a beef with an elected official is to take them out in the Democratic primary.

SCULLY: Last point, Jesse Holland. How does Senator Obama draw the line between embracing the CBC and issues important to them and, also, appealing to those independent voters who are deciding between Senators McCain and Obama?

HOLLAND: Very carefully. Senator Obama will have to walk a fine line for the rest of this year up until the election.

He can't ignore the African-American votes, but he also can't ignore voters who are not African-American.

So he has to be very careful on the issues he picks and the issues he pushes.

In the end, the Congressional Black Caucus will be solidly behind him and probably will bring their voters behind him, but they won't be able to be ignored and they're going to probably make that point to him very forcefully later on in this year, as well.

SCULLY: Our thanks to Jesse Holland of the Associated Press and Mike Soraghan of The Hill newspaper. Thanks for being with us on Newsmakers.

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